Curse

Poison Ivy · Jun 01, 2006, 01:00 PM // 13:00

*Migraine* - *Reply :Contemplation of Purity* (So damn evil!)

Siren · Jun 01, 2006, 02:39 PM // 14:39

I'm well aware of the Surge incidental damage, and back when we still had 10/10 on Burn/Surge, it was worthwhile. Doing 80-something damage with one skill was pretty respectable; doubling through through a tag-team was even better. Now, I've done the Burn/Surge/Wrack combination before, and yeah, it was pretty effective, and even though I've had plenty of casters start running around after I've drained them, that build was flawed in two important ways:

1) The e-denial only targets conventional energy reserves.

What I mean by that is we're knocking off 40-something energy (well, that's only with Dual Surge) and nothing more. We're not stripping away e-regen. We're not limiting their energy itself. We're just doing nothing more than using E.Drain over and over again. Maybe that's all well and good, but unless you can limit their e-regen...you've done very little.

Consider it for a moment. The most important aspect of e-management (and by extension, e-denial) is not getting the target down to low energy. Or at least it shouldn't be. The most important part of e-management/e-denial is concerned with energy regen. If a caster has no e-regen anymore, they can't do much.

If they get zeroed out when it comes to energy, they have ways around that, whether it be focus-swapping, timing Mantra of Recall beforehand, etc.

But they still have options there. It's a pain in the ass to get sent into energy degen--especially if you're a Monk.

Even though it's not quite feasible at this point, a Wither/Malaise/Ether Lord combination is pretty nice...particularly when you're running at a high Inspiration (sounds crazy, I know). I didn't expect it to work, but it does. At higher levels of Inspiration, Ether Lord hits a 3 e-degen breakpoint. After you blow through enough of your energy, having casted Malaise and Wither, you hit them with Ether Lord. I know how crazy and bizarre it sounds, haha, but I'm completely serious here.

Ether Lord is one of those red-headed stepchild skills that people never think can be useful at all due to its duration...and how lackluster it seems when they work out the energy effects mathematically. But they're looking at it in the wrong way. You're not using the skill to regain energy, just like you're not using it to actively drain energy from your target. You're using Ether Lord much like how you use Malaise and Wither: to suppress the target's e-regen.

And I suppose that's my main point here. Surge/Burn is active drain, whereas Wither/Malaise/Ether Lord is passive suppression, and I think that's why people don't "get it" when it comes to forms of e-denial other than Surge/Burn. They don't even see the possibilities of passive suppression...and Arcane Languor is entirely passive suppression, because you aren't actively draining the target's energy.

Instead, you're attacking their ability to regen through the infliction of Exhaustion. When they've only got 5E left, and the rest of their energy bar is gray, they have no energy regen at that point, because they have nowhere to regen to. It's a similar principle to ripping out their 3-4 pips of regen, then hitting them with another 3 degen.

2) The ratio of your energy spent to their energy lost favors your target (especially now).

Burn/Surge both cost 10E, and have a recharge of...what is it now, 20 seconds? You're spending 10E to actively drain 8E from your target, and inflict some incidental AoE damage on top of that. Running Dual Surge is a bit better, because it at least alleviates that ratio a bit.

The fact that Dual Surge was the standard, rather than just a single Surger for the most part is pretty telling, I think. Single Surge was adequate, but Dual Surge was where it became truly effective. It's like a doublemint commercial, only instead of gum and attractive people, there's burning and mildly unsettling Riverdancers.

Arcane Languor, on the other hand, doesn't need a partner to castrate the two professions it's designed to take down (Monks and Mesmers). Just think about what we're going to be seeing. With Ritualists, having one or two Monks is possible again--and I'd imagine BoonProt would still be viable (hell, it still is viable with some mild alterations to the build). No team goes without Mesmers, usually, and I rarely see any Mesmers using spells with slow cast times.

Now...if in a guild scrimmage, within 4 seconds, in a heavily reduced PvP environment, Arcane Languor inflicted 40-50 points of Exhaustion from just Reversal of Fortune, Guardian, etc...what's going to happen in a full-on game environment? You can watch the GvG battles right now and see the Monks damn near spamming their spells, right? Put an Arcane Languor on them, covered with one or two other hexes and watch what happens.

And if hex removal is a factor...there are only going to be three characters on any 8-man build that carry hex removal. What are those three characters? Monks, Mesmers, and Ritualists. And Monks and Mesmers are Arcane Languor fodder for sure.

dgb · Jun 01, 2006, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Themis

Come on now... no-one actually removes 6sec hexes !!! Simply because in the mid-battle, hex removal is prioritized differently, so by the time they're being removed (by another player, WHEN and IF he has the time to do it), 3 to 4 seconds have already passed

So players don't bother asking for removal, they choose the simple (and best imo) solution : pick a spell and cast through.

If I'm monking and I want a hex off in GvG, it goes off. It all comes down to your communication/ability to play as a team. Losing a skill for a minute is stupid when good communication would have been far more effective.

Siren, no decent monk is going to let their energy get down to a max of five. And if they do, they'll work off focus swaps. You're talking an unrealistic situation, good monks may spam skills at time but they are just as quick to cancel them. Half the time if a diversion lands in the middle of a RoF I can cancel it and a diversion has to have near ridiculous timing to catch a guardian, mend or other skill.

At this point a monk calls on vent and says get this hex off of me, or eats the exhaustion and removes it themselves, or they just cast through it, take thirty points of exhaustion (which is still skimming off the top) and put defences in place for the next time you try it. If your target lets themselves get down to five maximum energy, then you're fighting scrubway and it doesn't matter.

The current build I'm running with in GvG has hex removal on four different characters. How exactly are you going to shut all of them down? As soon as people realise you're running around with a dangerous hex, removal gets prioritised and it won't survive longer than a couple of seconds.

Lastly as soon as you say wither and malaise on a caster, your argument breaks down. These skills are pox beyond all recognition and will never last on a caster for more than the two seconds required to do a focus switch.

You're also wrong about conventional reserves... A surge mesmer who understood what they were doing and who could coordinate with their team was scary to a monk with MoR. A shatter followed by a twin surge and the monk just took 300 damage and lost all the gain from their energy management, attacking their energy management.

fatboyslimerr · Jun 01, 2006, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Hear me now (rasta accent). Siren and a few others aren't really getting the point. Diversion and Langour only have an affect if a monk/mesmer casts through them and their durations aren't exactly that threatening. Most decent monks will notice diversion/langour and just REGEN ENERGY for this period till it goes away by itself. So what, they are inactive for 6-8 seconds, unless you dual exhaust + a couple of covers both enemy monks + mesmers, their teams other monk should be able to management keeping the team alive, then when langour/diversion end that monk has a bit more energy and can continue to heal like a pimp.

Wither/malaise/ether lord are nice on paper but in practice, you would have to have such a hex heavy build, that these spells will be the least of a teams worries otherwise, one will be removed and the combo becomes less effective, also ether lords duration just isn't long enough imo. They just aren't that great, oh yay -1 energy degen, focus swap ?? energy management skill ??. I came up against a Panic {E} mesmer the other day and with only +2 energy regen I was still effective, I jsut made better use of my energy management skills.

Dual Surge ?? Solo Power Leak ftw

I think its more likely to be able to interrupt a boon prot than catch them casting through diversion/langour. This is why i'm a power leaking pimp daddy

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 01, 2006, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Which brings us back to the arguement that diversion/Arcane Langour is only a wanna be blackout. They don't have to cast if they don't want to. The whole arguement "If we spike a guy the monk will have to cast" is a bunch of bullshit. If they were blackout'd the guy would die. If they weren't the have the choice to let them live or to let them die. Whether or not they make the correct decision is difficult to discern but what is clear is that letting them have that choice is a bad thing.

Siddious · Jun 01, 2006, 07:46 PM // 19:46

I think at this moment in time people will not be aware of what 'Arcane Langour' does. You will cast it on a monk, they won't know what the spell does and will cast through it. The monk will suddenly be confused and begin panicing as he has large amounts of exhaustion. Taking this into account, he will try and be more aware in the near future.

Basically what I'm trying to say is Arcane Langour will be like Backfire, where at first people casted through it only to relize it was killing them. They became aware of this and stopped casting, so now Backfire is really just a shutdown spell. THE SAME WILL HAPPEN TO LANGOUR... They will just treat it as they do backfire, meaning it will just become a shutdown spell but with less duration than Backfire, meaning it will be pretty useless.

BaconSoda · Jun 01, 2006, 07:54 PM // 19:54

sorry, accidently made a double post, 2nd one has more info.

BaconSoda · Jun 01, 2006, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Back to the arguement about diversion/blackout, as well as arcane lanuor. Although situaltional diversion and languor can be very useful pressure skills, as is backfire (correct me if i'm wrong). Also, if someone must take the time to communicate for someone to remove a hex, that takes both time and energy off of the team's original strategy, thus disrupting the forseen effect of the build (idealy, unless the team is dumb enough to finish their line before removing such a potent hex). Whereas these are situaltional, so is blackout, but in a less direct manner.It takes direct contact, and disables the one who has cast it, as well as the one it has been cast on. Although the direct contact can be aleiviated by "Aura of Displacement", this skill takes an eilte spot, and can almost as easily be replaced by "Recall" if one is using it for the thought of getting away from the action. If you see a mesmer running directly at you, do you think the same way as I do and think "it's an IW mes or a BO mes get out of the way!" or do you stand there and take the hit? Every skill in the GW universe is situational, and when used in the correct situation can be effective.The Mesmer was created as an indirect damage/shut-down class, and every skill mentioned in this thread has been to these topics, and when used correctly can do the indeirect damage and shut-down the class was created to do.

Siren · Jun 01, 2006, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

Siren, no decent monk is going to let their energy get down to a max of five. And if they do, they'll work off focus swaps. You're talking an unrealistic situation, good monks may spam skills at time but they are just as quick to cancel them. Half the time if a diversion lands in the middle of a RoF I can cancel it and a diversion has to have near ridiculous timing to catch a guardian, mend or other skill.

At this point a monk calls on vent and says get this hex off of me, or eats the exhaustion and removes it themselves, or they just cast through it, take thirty points of exhaustion (which is still skimming off the top) and put defences in place for the next time you try it. If your target lets themselves get down to five maximum energy, then you're fighting scrubway and it doesn't matter.

The useable 5E was an example of what's possible in a limited PvP environment. And if, in a limited PvP environment, you can put 45-50 Exhaustion on a BoonProt, you can very easily put 30 Exhaustion on a good Monk in a full-on PvP setting, especially when you've got the rest of your team pressuring them to keep healing/protting/etc.

Other bits I find particularly amusing are...

Quote:

And if they do, they'll work off focus swaps.

...because Mesmers aren't going to be looking for that, and won't again start throwing around Arcane Languor when they see the focus swap?

Quote:

or they just cast through it, take thirty points of exhaustion (which is still skimming off the top)

...because out of a possible 60E total (75 if you count the foci swap), 30 points of Exhaustion is much more than just "still skimming off the top." 30 points of Exhaustion is just about half of your total energy, and even then, that's being generous by giving a Monk 60E to play with in the first place.

Quote:

The current build I'm running with in GvG has hex removal on four different characters. How exactly are you going to shut all of them down? As soon as people realise you're running around with a dangerous hex, removal gets prioritised and it won't survive longer than a couple of seconds.

Tell me the characters, the builds, the attributes, etc., and I'll give you an answer.

Quote:

Lastly as soon as you say wither and malaise on a caster, your argument breaks down. These skills are pox beyond all recognition and will never last on a caster for more than the two seconds required to do a focus switch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren earlier in the thread

Even though it's not quite feasible at this point, a Wither/Malaise/Ether Lord combination[...]

Note the bolded portion of the quote, please. Thank you, come again![/Apu]

Quote:

You're also wrong about conventional reserves... A surge mesmer who understood what they were doing and who could coordinate with their team was scary to a monk with MoR. A shatter followed by a twin surge and the monk just took 300 damage and lost all the gain from their energy management, attacking their energy management.

Either way, the meat of the Surge Mesmer is still hitting the energy that's right there in front of them, directly draining it out of the target. No amount of conjecture is going to change that. The idea of a Surge Mesmer is almost stupid-simple because there's no deeper strategy than taking a direct approach...and I don't think there's any deeper strategy possible with Surge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatboyslimerr

unless you dual exhaust + a couple of covers both enemy monks + mesmers, their teams other monk should be able to management keeping the team alive, then when langour/diversion end that monk has a bit more energy and can continue to heal like a pimp.

Thank you, fatboy. I've bolded the precise strategy that's been running through my head the entire time, and there's an entire build churning up there, too.

Regarding this Blackout talk...it reminds me of a cute little children's story I read a while back.

There are a few mice that decide something needs to be done about this cat that's been tormenting them. One of the mice suggests a bell, so it'll jingle and alert the mice to the cat's presence. The group agrees, thinks it's a marvelous plan. One mouse speaks up, however, and asks them how they're going to get the bell on the cat.

See, Blackout is like the bell, and all of the Blackout fans here are the mice. The Monk is the cat.

You're praising the bell, treating it like sheer brilliance, noting how it's such a great counter to an anti-spike.

But just how are you going to attach that bell to that cat?

An AoD Mouse? That's a bit of a waste of resources, isn't it? AoD to just use Blackout and nothing more?

Mesmer Mouse? Are mice really able to run up to a cat to poke them, and then get away?

Am I getting through to anyone with this analogy?

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 01, 2006, 09:40 PM // 21:40

The problem with Arcane Langour is that a single casting does not hurt the caster enough to be noteworthy. Now personally if it said "If the caster casts a spell while under the effects of this spell they die"; it would be just as effective as an echoed blackout to some extent; it wouldn't tie up your skills, it could be used at range, but generally the same effect.

My point being is that the punishment of this skill is much more lenient than diversion or backfire.

If triggered once it will likely not affect the caster at all . With a recharge of 15 seconds 15/3 of this exhaustion will be gone; or 50% of it. If you used echo, and for the sake of the arguement you would be able to keep it on them indefinatly this way (as if echo had unlimited duration) The typical caster (who has a max energy of about 54~ give or take depending on gear {52 with a +5 staff, 54 with a denravi+focus, 55 with a +18 energy staff, 56 with the +19 energy staff}) will be disabled in 6 castings of a spell, couple this with standard cast times and recharge times of spells (we can assume once every 3 seconds) in addition to after cast delay... the casting these 6 spells with give another 6 energy to make it 7 spells.

With that being said; diversion can disable that bar in 8 casts; and restricts the same spell from being cast more than once.

Theoretical backfire loop would disable the caster in about 3 spells (140x3=420 assuming their max hp is 455) but we can call it 4.

Now by looking at these numbers backfire seems the most restrictive; only letting 3-4 spells. However we all know diversion is the most restrictive so we now ask ourselves "why?"
The answer is it is more difficult to deal with; "why?"
It affects skills and spells; "why is this important?"
Contemplation of Purity

Thats what it boils down to really; its that powerful of a skill. With such powerful anti-hex removal in the monk class anti-spell mesmer hexes against monks are just about useless.

Siren · Jun 01, 2006, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

The problem with Arcane Langour is that a single casting does not hurt the caster enough to be noteworthy. Now personally if it said "If the caster casts a spell while under the effects of this spell they die"; it would be just as effective as an echoed blackout to some extent; it wouldn't tie up your skills, it could be used at range, but generally the same effect.

My point being is that the punishment of this skill is much more lenient than diversion or backfire.

If triggered once it will likely not affect the caster at all . With a recharge of 15 seconds 15/3 of this exhaustion will be gone; or 50% of it. If you used echo, and for the sake of the arguement you would be able to keep it on them indefinatly this way (as if echo had unlimited duration) The typical caster (who has a max energy of about 54~ give or take depending on gear {52 with a +5 staff, 54 with a denravi+focus, 55 with a +18 energy staff, 56 with the +19 energy staff}) will be disabled in 6 castings of a spell, couple this with standard cast times and recharge times of spells (we can assume once every 3 seconds) in addition to after cast delay... the casting these 6 spells with give another 6 energy to make it 7 spells.

With that being said; diversion can disable that bar in 8 casts; and restricts the same spell from being cast more than once.

Theoretical backfire loop would disable the caster in about 3 spells (140x3=420 assuming their max hp is 455) but we can call it 4.

Now by looking at these numbers backfire seems the most restrictive; only letting 3-4 spells. However we all know diversion is the most restrictive so we now ask ourselves "why?"
The answer is it is more difficult to deal with; "why?"
It affects skills and spells; "why is this important?"
Contemplation of Purity

Thats what it boils down to really; its that powerful of a skill. With such powerful anti-hex removal in the monk class anti-spell mesmer hexes against monks are just about useless.

Which is why any build (team or otherwise) should have methods and means to disable CoP. Whether that be knockdowns, interrupts, other hexes...there are many, many options there. Plus, CoP has a 10-second recharge, which cuts down on its frequency.

And let's not forget the possibility of a Ranger bringing Equinox. ~_^

Beat_Go_Stick · Jun 01, 2006, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

And let's not forget the possibility of a Ranger bringing Equinox. ~_^

You beat me to it.

Exuinox
Arcane Languor
Exhausting Assault + Moebius Strike + Exhausting Assault

Team Arena Exhaustion build. I've been running one with a few online acquaintances and it works better than I would guess the people here would initially give it credit for. I created it under the premise that a distinct possibility of beating 60 points of exhaustion into a target in a 5 second period is nothing to just dismiss as crappy. I haven't put it to the test in GvG yet (because a 4 second Arcane Languor may be well and good in TA but GvG is another matter) but I can definitely say that the most enemy casters end up exhausted within the first minute of battle.

Given, NOBODY recognizes Arcane Languor yet and so plenty of people cast right through it...but an Assassin with Moebius Strike and Axhausting Assault can stack an ruthless 40 points of exhaustion in no time with the assistance of Equinox. The kicker is the Assassin can pull this off every 8 seconds. I've had numerous matches that ended with 3 enemy casters running around wanding and staffing because they were at full exhaustion...and there's nothing more satisfying than shutting them down and dominating them like that

I'll post my build on the Team Arena Board when I get home tonight. Maybe you guys can help me refine it a bit

Hella Good · Jun 01, 2006, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Oh, damn, how did I miss this thread. All people I completely disagree with are posting here galore.

Back to main discussion, Arcane Languor is perfectly viable after they almost doubled its duration. I haven't seen the exact progression but 1...8 sounds to me it's gonna last about 6-7s with a reasonable amount of points in FC, which is perfectly fine. This spell will completely destroy Boon Prots, period. If you want to argue against that- be my guest, it won't make it any less of a fact. CoP is not a factor, esp. since you can force the Monk to use it and you can then safely apply AL/cover hex.

As for Diversion/Blackout- the 2 skills don't compete with one another, they compliment each other. They do completely different things, what they have in common is they are equally important in a shutdown build. Enough said.

Evilsod · Jun 02, 2006, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beat_Go_Stick

You beat me to it.

Exuinox
Arcane Languor
Exhausting Assault + Moebius Strike + Exhausting Assault

I keep hearing this sorta but does it ACTUALLY WORK! I can't see why Equinox wouldn't double anything that AL does. But if by the sound of things, Exhausting Assault just gives the target 10 exhaustion (I'll have to look for the description later) i don't see Equinox increasing it to 20. If it did then there will be some major balancing issues with it sooner or later, an assassin that can give a caster 40 exhaustion in 4 seconds with no input from the caster what-so-ever is very unbalanced imo. Why not just go Me/A and make it fit in with a Diversion/Blackout build...

Just had a look on guild wiki.
Exhausting Assault - Must follow an Off-Hand Attack. Target foe's action is interrupted. If that action was a spell, target foe suffers from exhaustion

Equinox - Create a level 1..8 Spirit. Spells cast within its range that cause Exhaustion cause double the Exhaustion instead. This Spirit dies after 30...126 seconds

The last time checked, inflicting exhaustion in that way wasn't casting a spell. So with that description it shouldn't work. Be it hard to actually achieve since you do need to hit a spell while doing a combo, but it would still be very overpowered if you could give a caster 20 Exhaustion for interrupting them in something thats not even elite.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 02, 2006, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Arcane Langour does not stop CoP
Diversion does to some extent
Blackout does completely
Therefore Blackout>Diversion>Langour

Force a monk to use CoP; be my guest. It won't stop the skill from being any less useless. Instead of this if CoP is somehow a "non-issue" lets just use backfire and take the monk out stone cold dead in 4 casts instead of beating around the bush trying to do so. He can heal himself sure; just a waste of energy; which is what this skill is supposed to do in the first place. Backfire, longer duration, more threatening, immediate threat instead of over time, non-elite...if CoP wasn't such a large issue I would have been sold awhile ago.

Problem:CoP
Solution: no-current viable counter...now maybe if arcane larceny stole skills...instead of spells where spells did not count as skills and larceny only stole skills...

Beat_Go_Stick · Jun 02, 2006, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Exhausting Assault - Must follow an Off-Hand Attack. Target foe's action is interrupted. If that action was a spell, target foe suffers from exhaustion

Equinox - Create a level 1..8 Spirit. Spells cast within its range that cause Exhaustion cause double the Exhaustion instead. This Spirit dies after 30...126 seconds

The last time checked, inflicting exhaustion in that way wasn't casting a spell. So with that description it shouldn't work. Be it hard to actually achieve since you do need to hit a spell while doing a combo, but it would still be very overpowered if you could give a caster 20 Exhaustion for interrupting them in something thats not even elite.

I haven't been on the recieving end of it but it sure seems like it works. Casters stop casting pretty damn quick. I'll try to get a guildie to help me test it next time I'm on. Sure looks like it shouldnt work, doesn't it.

As for hitting the spell in a combo, you just hit with an off-hand and dont use the dual until they cast. Exhausting Assault has a .5 second cast so it's much easier to time.

Hella Good · Jun 02, 2006, 02:20 AM // 02:20

CoP was an issue, it no longer is. At 10s recharge (double what it was before), it is quite balanced. Before, it was very hard to use hexes effectively vs Boon Prots, I believe it's much easier now.

Your position on hexes is disturbing. The way you represent things, we might as well stop using them altogether. Something that I've noticed many times in your posts. Seems to me, following your logic, Boon Prots shouldn't be possible, because they use enchantments and those are easily removed. Which is, of course, far from true. Something having a counter doesn't mean it's not viable. After all, everything has a counter.

Insert AL in a hex heavy build and you can easily overwhelm the other teams hex management.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 02, 2006, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Everything has a counter; except CoP
Shame doesn't stop it
Larceny/theivery do not stop it
Backfire does not stop it
Interrupts do not stop it
Diversion might delay it
BO does delay it

There are no counters for CoP

Insert it into a hex heavy build you say? I will take my echo BO and play it safe tyvm; no sence in blowing a match on a chance that they have sufficient hex removal. Expel hexes is playable now. BO accomplishes everything AL wants to do; the second it hits them-it doesn't need a "second activation" or activations as AL has it. AL gets own'd by cop; sorry. Its too fast for a cover hex to hit the target. It just won't work.

You can "fodder" CoP in an attempt to overwhelm it; yet there lies expel hexes and convert hexes in wait for you. Besides as you pointed out; CoP recharges in 10 seconds; 50% faster than AL.

Terra Xin · Jun 02, 2006, 02:41 AM // 02:41

I thought the counter to CoP was enchantment removal, we have so many of them...

dgb · Jun 02, 2006, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

The useable 5E was an example of what's possible in a limited PvP environment. And if, in a limited PvP environment, you can put 45-50 Exhaustion on a BoonProt, you can very easily put 30 Exhaustion on a good Monk in a full-on PvP setting, especially when you've got the rest of your team pressuring them to keep healing/protting/etc.

And that's just not going to happen. Langour works in the same way as diversion, you don't see good monks running around in top level PvP with five skills diverted, you won't see good monks running around with fifty points of ehaustion either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

...because Mesmers aren't going to be looking for that, and won't again start throwing around Arcane Languor when they see the focus swap?

Uh, that's not the point. You need langour to inflict ridiculous levels of exhaustion before it gets crippling because of a monks ability to dynamically alter their max energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

...because out of a possible 60E total (75 if you count the foci swap), 30 points of Exhaustion is much more than just "still skimming off the top." 30 points of Exhaustion is just about half of your total energy, and even then, that's being generous by giving a Monk 60E to play with in the first place.

Thirty points of exhaustion is skimming off the top, if you take that out a monk will play around in the areas below it. To get crippling you have to give a monk a max of 20 energy across all equipment variations, which is going to need about sixty points of exhaustion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Tell me the characters, the builds, the attributes, etc., and I'll give you an answer.

How about no. You're the one making Arcane Langour out to be the pinacle of caster shutdown, I'm saying that it gets beaten by intelligent hex removal. If you need to know the exact build that you're going up against before you can make it work then it's clearly flawed in any realistic situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Note the bolded portion of the quote, please. Thank you, come again![/Apu]

Then why the hell are you mentioning it at all? I can throw in random crap all I want as well but it doesn't exactly do anything useful for my argument so I try not to pollute the forum with it. It's nowhere near feasible at the moment and doesn't even deserve a mention in any serious context.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Either way, the meat of the Surge Mesmer is still hitting the energy that's right there in front of them, directly draining it out of the target. No amount of conjecture is going to change that. The idea of a Surge Mesmer is almost stupid-simple because there's no deeper strategy than taking a direct approach...and I don't think there's any deeper strategy possible with Surge.

Then you're not playing your mesmer right. If you're just slamming surge, burn and signet into your target as soon as they recharge you're playing it wrong. Any gimp can do that and it's not particularly effective against any monk who understands how energy works. The good surge mesmers attack energy which isn't initially available by forcing releases etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Thank you, fatboy. I've bolded the precise strategy that's been running through my head the entire time, and there's an entire build churning up there, too.

So you're going to devote three, maybe even four characters just so you can get your strategy to work. The ammount of caster hate that would be needed to get this to work is just stupid. Whereas you can drop a surger in and have them work with very little added infrastructure, you now have to structure your whole offense around shutting down hex removal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Am I getting through to anyone with this analogy?

No because it's flawed. Mesmers have powerful defence mechanisms themselves and when communicating well can overextend to blackout a monk reasonably safely.

If you're talking about Equinox just remember that you're asking to take an elite spirit, which is probably going to die in about ten seconds which you can't oathshot to bring back up.